Mechanical Disc vs. Fully Hydraulic

DrewBenson

A model of scooter I like is offered with mechanical disc brakes or with fully hydraulic brakes for more money. Hydraulic currently out of stock also. I am trying to decide if waiting for (and paying for) hydraulic is worth it. Anyone compared same or similar scooters with different brakes?

justin

DrewBenson

Which scooter are you looking at specifically and what is the price difference?

I agree with @Scoots and want to add some points:

Brake feeling / control / power with hydraulic is massive compared to cable-activated. They are super smooth, consistent, predictable. You gets lots of braking power for your efforts.
Cable-activated brakes get worse in time; cables stretch out; they bind up in their housing; they rust. They aren’t nearly as linear or forceful as hydraulic brakes and get worse in time. Depending on how you store/use you’ll have to replace cables/housing to keep them feeling smooth and have consistent performance.
Hydraulic maintenance can be more involved (e.g. hydraulic brake bleed), but overall I think you’ll spend less time with hydraulic maintenance/adjustment than cable disc brakes.

Basically nothing compares to control and power that you get when going to hydraulic brakes.

If the scooter has even moderate performance they are worth springing for (unless the retailer is really gouging for the upgrade – in which case you might by an aftermarket kit and install yourself).

adamwelch

DrewBenson drew you have to deal with brake fluid every 500 or so miles with hydraulic brakes. Its not so bad but like a car if done wrong you wont have working brakes.

In europe many clients request drum brakes.

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Scoots

The answer is, as it always seems to be, “it depends”. I don’t have experience with the two on a scooter, but I have with bikes. There’s a decent pro/con section over here: https://wheretheroadforks.com/hydraulic-vs-mechanical-disc-brakes/

TL;DR: hydraulic are better in most aspects. The exceptions are cost, and how easy they are to repair/replace. Whether the cost is worth it depends on how fast you plan on riding, how long you’re willing to wait, and what the actual additional cost is. If it doubles the cost of the scooter, obviously that’s probably not worth it. If it’s only $10 extra and only an extra week delay, then those scales shift significantly.

DrewBenson

Scoots Thank you! This was a helpful article to my situation.

DrScootLittle

Great article. Thanks for sharing that.

DrewBenson

justin Thanks. I am considering the Apollo Phantom for many reasons, but right now it is only available for preorder without hydraulic. Price difference is $150 for the hydraulic, which is reasonable. The wait is a factor because I don’t know how long it will be for the hydraulic to come around again for availability. My current scooter, a ninebot ES4 has 600 miles on it and the wear and tear is real. When I bought it, I didn’t realize how much I would actually use it to commute, so I am ready for a real upgrade. Waiting for hydraulic model of the Phantom will be rough.

justin

DrewBenson I definitely agree on the pricing – super reasonable and absolutely worth springing for.

The wait is real though. If they offered the hydraulic as an upgrade that you could add on later that might be a solution worth asking about.

Cable-activated disc brakes aren’t bad, but once you’ve used the hydraulics you won’t want to go back.

Barry578

What’s interesting is, since you’re considering the Phantom, the guys at Apollo are rather negative toward hydraulic brakes, at least in some their recent group discussion Youtube videos (fascinating and informative, by the way, especially for anyone technically inclined and considering an Apollo).

They seem to be in agreement on two main points here: 1) Hydraulic has no real functional advantage over mechanical/cable, they both end up doing the same thing, compressing the pads on the disk. And mechanical requires less maintenance, are more reliable 2) Regenerative brake technology is the future for electric scooters. Where mechanical and hydraulic have little room remaining for improvement, regenerative technology is in it’s infancy, and offers many advantages.

Perhaps they’re pushing regenerative braking both because they feature an improved version of it on the Phantom Ludi, and plan on refining and implementing it more and more throughout their entire line. Or perhaps they’re having trouble meeting demand for the majority of customers who want hydraulic. Anyway, they seem to believe pretty strongly that hydraulic is not really much of an upgrade over mechanical, and not worth the cost or trouble.

DrewBenson

justin The only place I can find to order the Phantom is Fluid Free Ride.com. I asked them if the hydraulic can be purchased later for upgrading, but nothing yet. I’ll follow up if I hear from them!

Barry578

I don’t doubt that, Justin. I was just mentioning above some of the impressions I got from some Apollo team videos. That was a great explanation above, by the way, on the rather notable benefits of hydraulic over mechanical, just the sort of thing a first time buyer needs.

justin

Barry578 The counterpoints on the merits of cable driven disc brakes are fair, but as you alluded to, probably retailer-centric.

I can imagine it’s much more difficult to support hydraulic brakes, especially if customers have issues with them and need to bleed, adjust, repair etc themselves.

Nothing beats being able to adjust a screw to tighten/loosen your brakes.

I’m also wondering if the market isn’t quite sophisticated enough to appreciate the benefits of hydraulic. The extra trouble with them makes some retailers like Apollo a bit negative about them.

DrScootLittle

I hadn’t thought about the support issue. It’s true, hydraulics are going to be generally more hands-off, but more complicated when you do have to get into them.

The funny thing for me is, whenever I have my hands on a set of mechanical disc brakes, I tend to spend a lot of time fiddling around with them, because in top tune, mechanical disc brakes can get close to hydraulics in performance. But Justin is right, once you get used to the feel of hydraulic, it’s hard to go back.

The good news is that with $150 price difference, that pretty much covers the parts cost for upgrade later. The only tricky part is installation. Since the brake lines go through the stem of the Phantom, the brakes have to be filled after they are installed, which means owning a bleed kit.

Of course, I would recommend everyone with hydraulic brakes buys a bleed kit ($22 on Amazon), but learning to bleed brakes is probably not high on your list of things to do, when you’d rather bolt hydraulics on and go ride.

DrScootLittle

@DrewBenson , I realized that we do have an example of very similar scooters with different brakes in our database. The Mantis Pro has full hydraulic brakes and stopped from 15 mph in 10.2ft while the base model with semi-hydraulics stopped in 11.1 ft. Both very good, but the difference is most likely from the ability to modulate the brakes and keep them right on the verge of locking. That said, our braking numbers on the fully mechanical disc brake version of the Apollo Ghost were outstanding at 10.6 ft.

DrewBenson

DrScootLittle Thank you very much! Very comparable stop distance between the two braking options.

DrScootLittle

DrewBenson
Yes, in the US Fluidfreeride are the exclusive distributor. We know them personally. They are a great outfit. They’re probably a bit overwhelmed given that scooter season is getting underway.

Yeah, I just double-checked their site and Apollo and neither offer the kit, or have a pre-order for it. One way or another, it can be done, but I expect they’ll offer an upgrade kit as soon as the availbility of hydraulic brakes gets better.

JamesTron

I see lots of people say they hate cable discs, they’re awful, weak, give you sore hands etc. Been riding with them for over a year and found none of the above.

yes the cables stretched a bit at first but i don’t have that trouble anymore, that might also be down to me getting used to how much force i need to use and not squeezing too hard on them anymore.
no they are not weak. they lock wheels easy if I grab em hard. But - they can be grabby, and it has taken some getting used to how much force I need to use. It probably helps, I guess, that I never rode a motorcycle and I’m used to cable brakes on a pushbike.
no i’ve never had sore hands. if i grab them too hard i stretch the cables. maybe for someone with very small hands, maybe? the right amount of force isn’t that much…
e-scooters have e-brakes. Yes they tend to be really low-tech on/off on most, still. But on a low setting they are great for slowing you down when you’re going fast. then brake pads only get used for 25-0, or when you really need to stop suddenly.
No, they don’t need adjusting frequently… well, interestingly, my back brake did a lot until I removed the big rear fender, and i figured out it was really good at dumping water and road grit onto the rear rotor, which was wearing out the back pads really quickly. Since removing the fender I need to adjust them once a month (a minor operation, one screw).

John07

The Differences Between Mechanical and Hydraulic Disc Brakes: Hydraulic Disc Brakes have Hydraulic systems work with fluids. This type transfers force from the lever to the caliper, giving you a greater braking or gripping power level. Hydraulic systems work with fluids and transfer force from the lever to the caliper, giving you a greater braking or gripping power level. They offer maximum braking power that you can easily control. Compared to hydraulic disc brakes, mechanical disc brakes are quite basic. They are also known for being lightweight, which vouches for comfort and stability on your trip. In terms of budget, I recommend this brake type as they are way cheaper than others.

DagwoodStreets

I realize I am replying to an initial post that is probably well past being helpful to the originator of the post. My simple philosophy is if you are purchasing a scooter that is above the basic or economy category and you plan on riding it a lot, pay the extra money, wait the extra amount of time or do whatever it takes to get hydraulic brakes because they are better. I understand my philosophy is oversimplified because if you are buying a $200-500 scooter hydraulic brakes are probably overkill. In that situation, cable brakes are fine and if you are in dusty or wet areas drum brakes also perform sufficiently at speeds below 20 miles an hour.