Question about ESG Range Test Speed

BYan

Hi guys, I’m a big fan of ESG reviews, which let me always know what’s new out there.

Now days lots of fast speed scooters are coming out, so I’m very curious how fast the ESG guys ride them during their range test. I noticed they posted their method something like below, which seems the ypical average speed is 15 mph to 20 mph, but we all know the top speed of Dulatron, Wolf King, Nami series are far beyond 20 mph, so do they still keep that relatively low speed with dual motor mode to test those caterlogy of scooters? do anyone have clues?

Our test track is located in Berkeley, California, USA and consists of a 2 mile loop in dense suburbs with 102 ft of elevation change and 7 stops.

Conditions
165 lb rider
Scooter ridden as fast as safely possible in the fastest, least energy-conserving mode.
Typical average 15 mph to 20 mph, when moving

justin

BYan Great question! @DrScootLittle probably is the best to answer, but here I go:

Stopping and starting kills the average speed of the test, despite riding as quickly as is safe. Averaging 15 to 20 mph is actually pretty decent. On a fast scooter, this will include periods of time where you are cruising at 30 or 40 mph. On anywhere but freeway, it’s quite hard to average much above 20 mph (unless you are smashing through stop signs / lights with no regard). The test is meant to capture the range you’ll get from riding quickly in an urban environment that will involve stops and starts.

Some cars report avg speed and if you do a decent number of urban miles, you’ll see surprisingly low average speeds.

GTRXRider

When i do my GPS tracking, it highly depends on the route how much distance is without stops, but even one stop kills the average speed rating.

Example: Car ride. 94 km/h max speed, 20km distance, out of city mostly, so biased towards freeway. Yet, 64km/h average speed. WITH stops counted, 61 km/h average (so, standing counted, but not counted it is only marginally higher).

With my scooter: 9km mostly without stops, 22.9km/h max, 16km/h average (18.5km/h moving only).

With scooter and more inner city but mostly without stops: 27 km/h top (kicking downhill with rear wind), but 15 km/h average.

DrScootLittle

We do run a python script that subtracts out time that’s spent standing absolutely still though. So, if I take a bathoom break in the middle of a 3 hour ride it won’t pull the average down. I always calculate the average speed twice. Once including everything and once with the stops subtracted out. It usually comes out very very close. But on the rides where I make a pitstop, I can see the effect of the correction setting things right.

Starts and stops still definitely affect the results though, since a lot of time is spent speeding up an slowing down.

The important thing is that we’re riding them all in full performance mode in the way we think people will use them in an urban environment (riding as fast as is safe). It’s surprising how close the averages come out on the big scooters. The vast majority of fast scooters land in the 18.5mph to 20.5 mph range. Peak speeds between stop signs, as Justin mentioned, are in the 30 mph range, sometimes touching 40.

-Paul from ESG

bamm

DrScootLittle
Can a local guy get a map of and run that course?

DonL

I’m often at 18-20 mph when cruising, but slowing down to stop or turn can bring the average down to 13.8 - 14 mph. And of course accelerating again. And I pause the GPS when I’m stopped. Even cruising at 40 mph in the city, you’ll keep that speed only for short periods unless you’re on a long stretch without stops, lights etc

BYan

@justin @DrScootLittle Thanks for your detailed explanation, which makes lots of sense to me. I didn’t realize the stop time before, but now it’s much clear.
Actually I’m working for a scooter manufature company, and we care your real life test data a lot, especially the range. We really want to simulate your test enviroment so we can test the range like you before sending the scooters out to you guys, in which case we have a better understanding if our improvement really maks positive effects and keep optimizing the parameters.
Anyway my last question is that, could you please provide us a rough concept of how frequently you make stops and brakes during the range test?

DrScootLittle

Hi BYan,
It varies depending on red lights, but the average number of slow downs (sub 50% of nominal speed, including complete stops) averages 2.7 per mile. In other words, over the course of the 59.5 mile range test I just completed, I dropped below 10 mph about 162 times.

BYan

DrScootLittle Great to know, thank you so much.

DrScootLittle

bamm
Yes! That would be awesome. It’s a really simple course.
Just keep running this box
Berkeley CA Hearst –> California –> Cedar –> Milvia
We start at Bonita and Hearst with a full charge and keep going until the scooter shuts down.

AL03

Hi
I am looking to get a scooter to commute up a mountain. I realistically need to gain about 1300m of elevation over about 30km. The actual elevation is only 500m but there a are a lot of ups and downs on the route I will need to take (dirt trails btw) to avoid being on the road due to local laws.
I am wondering if you record any elevation data on your range test that I could use to determine or even estimate if there are any production scooters that would actually go the distance?
I am aware I would need to be looking at some of the most high end vehicles to get even close to the required range, but am looking for data to avoid spending 6 or 7k (AUD) on something that weighs probably close to 50kg that I need to push 10km.
Thanks in advance.

DrScootLittle

AL03
This is a great question. We have quite a bit of elevation change in our range test, but I’ve never tried to quantify it. Net elevation change is close to zero, but ⅔ of the course is going up or downhill.

An interesting thing to calculate is the exact amount of PE (potential energy) that you and your scooter will gain at 500m
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/physics/gravitational-potential.php
Then convert Joules to Watt hours
https://www.google.com/search?q=joules+to+watt+hours&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS925US925&oq=joules+to+watt+hou&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l7j0i10i22i30.3840j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

So you and the scooter will gain 177 Watt-hours of potential energy by the end of the 500m climb. Even if the scooter is 50% efficient at turning battery power into Potential energy, that’s about 350 additional Watt hours that you’d need.

The fact that you’d be riding on dirt is going to also chew up a lot of power.

Here is a list of every scooter we’ve tested that would have a chance of making the trip you describe. Sorted from most range to least range.

The Wolf Warrior X Pro might be in the sweet spot with 41 miles of range 80lb scooter weight and $2,500 price.

-Paul from ESG

Minimotors Dualtron Thunder II ₆₀ miles of range on pavement
Kaabo Wolf King GT
NAMI Burn-E
EMOVE Cruiser
Minimotors Dualtron Thunder
Minimotors Dualtron Storm
Kaabo Wolf Warrior X Pro
Minimotors Dualtron Victor
Inokim OXO
Qiewa QPower
Kaabo Mantis Pro
Vsett 10+
Kaabo Wolf King
Minimotors Dualtron Eagle Pro
Kaabo Wolf Warrior X
Apollo Phantom (52V)
InMotion L9
EMOVE RoadRunner
Nanrobot D5+
Kaabo Wolf Warrior 11 30 miles of range on pavement

shooflyshoo

What would be interesting is that if Paul would do the range test and then Ramier (sorry if I spelled it wrong). I am very curious how much weight affects the range. Is the course that you use relatively flat or are there some hills? I think that there would be a greater difference between Paul and Ramier the more hills that there are. I don’t think that you would need to do this for all of the scooters but just a few in each class to see what the effect is and then we would be able to generalize for each class of scooter.

DrScootLittle

shooflyshoo

This is something I’ve wanted to do for a while. I agree, if we just did a few scooters, we could draw some conclusions about conversion factors.

Hmmmmm…. maybe it’s time to get Ramier out for some long rides :-)

shooflyshoo

You could call it the BDDC or the Big Dog Distance Coefficient. This would also be interesting to see how the BDDC varies by scooter class!